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LoveWins	Golden Rule	Lead	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 10:56:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hello, I've read through many of the posts on this board. I understand people's pain. I've been praying a lot about the pain involved in being gay and a Bahai...Here are some thoughts that came out 1) Baha'u'llah also taught that science and religion are one/harmonious...In fact, to the extent that medicine is healing derived from scientific knowledge, the UHJ has suggested that Science will be what will heal the problems/pain involved in being a gay Bahai (see the quote below). A number of sexual problems, such as homosexuality and trans-sexuality can well have medical aspects, and in such cases recourse should certainly be had to the best medical assistance... - Letter from the Universal House of Justice. Lights of Guidance (p364) 2) The latin root (i.e. the original/core meaning) of the word Science is Knowledge. Thus Knowledge is the key to healing the pain of being gay and bahai...
LoveWins	Golden Rule II	#1	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 11:13:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Things to know: A) Abdul Baha has taught that three levels of human existance exist: 1) Material - physical existance 2) Intellectual - beyond the material (interaction of 1+3) 3) Spiritual - beyond all words/description (divine) B) In light of this teaching, it can be said that three levels of human knowledge (science) exist: 1) Material knowledge - the realm of secular science 2) Intellectual knowledge - the realm of our personal path 3) Spiritual knowledge - the realm of our soul C) Secular (Material) scientists have asserted that homosexuality is not considered an illness of the physical (material) realm.
LoveWins	Know	#2	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 11:25:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Things to know (cont.): d) The Guardian of the faith (appointed to interpret the writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha as they apply to REGISTERED BAHAIS) has stated that the personal path of individuals registered in the Bahai Faith is not to include homosexual behavior. e) Baha'u'llah condemned sodomy (the behavior embodied in the story of Sodom and Gomora....i.e. the Rape of Lot...i.e. Male-Male rape) and adult Male intercourse with boys. Nothing more nothing less. f) Baha'u'llah brought many new Divine truths to humanity. One is that Religion is and always has been One (had a common thread of core truth dispite differences in social context, time, and place...). The greatest evidence of this can be found in the Golden Rule, a spiritual principle found in all surviving cultural moral/spiritual codes...
LoveWins	Understand	#3	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 11:41:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1) Given parts C) and D) above it can be seen that gay bahainess presents a conflict in personal path (the realm of Intellectual self understanding/acceptance) more than anything else...It is NOT a physical "ailment" (i.e. the cause of the pain associated with it is not physical), but is as natural a physical occurence as left handedness. 2) In this sense, problems associated with gay bahainess are to be healed through sound intellectual 'medicine' (healing derived from strong knowledge of the significance of one's personal path) NOT pills etc.
LoveWins	Statement of the 'Problem'	#4	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 12:44:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A) The Revelation of Baha'u'llah derives from the Creator, and contains profound spiritual truths meant in this age to touch the hearts of ALL people. B) People born (Created) to enter into same gender life partnerships see this destiny as a natural extention of their personal path (who they are/Intellectual/Self Knowledge). C) Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ, members of a lineage of Spiritual guidance for the followers of Baha'u'llah that was sanctioned/initiated by Baha'u'llah himself have stated that registered Bahai homosexual behavior is: 1) Unhealed/In need of medicine (UHJ - see above quote) 2) Wrong (Shoghi Effendi) 3) Unnatural (against nature") (Shoghi Effendi) 4) An Abomination (Shoghi Effendi)
Unregistered(d)	What do you conclude from this?	#5	[-]
Posts: 0 (10/11/03 13:48:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just wondering about your conclusions
LoveWins	Why Unhealed?	#6	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 14:12:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1) God is Truth (Reality). 2) The purpose of human existence/development is to strive to know and be True (In line with Truth). 3) Human existance that fullfills its purpose is Healed, and Whole. 4) Unique Articulation of that which is fully True (In line with Truth) concerning human existence is Extremely unusual, exceptional, and extraordinary 6) The Revelation of Bahaullah himself Uniquely and Fully Articulates that which is True concerning ALL current human existence. This revelation does NOT include condemnation of same gender life partnership. 7) Bahaullah Explicitly Sanctioned a lineage of spiritual guides for His followers that includes: Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. Insight derived from the Sanctioned lineage was meant to inform the BEHAVIOR of REGISTERED Bahais, and the personal path of all of humanity. 9) The revelation of Baha'u'llah holds that sex is a natural component of human life partnership and that such unions should be striven for to create a healed cultural environment for future generations. 10) The Sanctioned interpreters of the revelation of Baha'u'llah hold that those born to be REGISTERED Bahais are to engage only in different gender life partnership. 12) The revelation of Baha'u'llah acknowledges that not everyone was born to be REGISTERED Bahais in its encouragement of interaction with individuals on different spiritual paths (religions) in a spirit of friendship and love. 13) Gay Bahais experience pain/grief (are Unhealed) because they are aware that that which is True (in line with Truth/God) about the personal path that they were Created for, while NOT in violation of anything explicitly advocated by Baha'u'llah (that which is True for ALL humanity) indicates that theirs is not the path of a REGISTERED BAHAI (i.e. is not alignable behaviorally with the directives of the Sanctioned lineage for see 8 above)....and they love Baha'u'llah and perceive that official membership is the ONLY way to serve his Cause (the Cause of Most Great Peace)... AND because they were Created by God, they are INCORRECT in that regard (there must be another specific way for them to both serve God's cause AND fullfill their destiny with regard to life partnership....which they are missing by staying 'REGISTERED' and in pain)....THIS is unhealed (see #2 and 3 above).
LoveWins	Why Wrong?	#7	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 14:52:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The question here would be: Why would God (Truth) enable the Guardian to state that homosexual behavior is wrong for REGISTERED Bahais when the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is meant to speak to the hearts of all humanity AND each generation, like left-handedness, there will always be Created those who are made for same gender life partnership? Official Answer: It is a point of faith that, like the all male UHJ, the ordinance that the composition of REGISTERED members of the faith be those able to fullfill the path of entrance into different gender life partnerships or life celebacy serves the best interest of The Cause....
LoveWins	Why Unnatural?	#8	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 16:45:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1) Every human individual has the capacity to understand that the Truth behind why they are allowed to survive each day/walk a particular life path (as opposed to those who don't make it) is a Divine Mystery. 2) Thus the Truth behind the saying: 'But for the Grace of God, I'd be.....(ex. dead, less fortunate, on a different path)'. 3) The Revelation of Baha'u'llah teaches that: a) the struggles and triumphs we go through in interaction with our personal paths on this realm determine preparation of the spirit for existence in the next realm. b) The nature and rules upon which the next realm operates (including the exact nature of when and how we are to enter it/die/live) are beyond the comprehension of this realm. (i.e. they operate according to the Grace/Mystery of God) c) the ultimate purpose of the Divine and eternal truths sent down by the messengers of God are to provide lessons on how to best prepare the spirit for existance in the next realm. d) A core Divine truth that runs through all spiritual systems is that we Love others as ourselves/ treat others as we want to be treated (The Golden Rule). In this sense our life struggles to fullfill this principle may be the most essential element to the souls existence in the next realm.
LoveWins	Why Unnatural? (cont)	#9	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 17:20:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A) Three levels of nature exist in human conception of reality: 1. The Natural - that which is conceivable/understood on this realm 2. The Unnatural - that which is beyond comprehension on this realm/mysterious 3. The Supernatural - God, Truth, Ultimate Reality, that which is beyond comprehension. B) The next realm is Ruled by the Grace of God (inherently mysterious/unknown). In this sense, it's rules are unnatural (beyond nature). C) Human existance/life paths on this realm ultimately serve the purposes of existance on the next realm. They thus serve the purposes of the Grace of God. D) Individuals Created to enter into same gender life partnerships exist on this realm to serve a purpose not explicitly stated in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. And explicitly not allowed for REGISTERED Bahais. In this sense, this aspect of their path exists but for the Grace of God.....That which solely exists but for the Grace of God serves a purpose that is beyond the rules of this realm (unnatural).
LoveWins	Unconditional Love	#10	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 17:49:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1) The lessons of the Golden Rule, in running through all spiritual systems, appear to be an essential aspect of healed, whole, human existance on this realm (thus a CORE aspect of preparation for the next realm). 2) In this sense, we learn lessons in it in all that we do and everything that we are. 3) Three levels of love exist: Conditional Love - love in commonality (the understood) Unconditional Love - love beyond commonality (the mysterious/foreign) Superconditional Love - God's love 4) The teaching that we love OTHERS as we love ourselves isn't always best learned by love of commonality because, by design of the Grace of God, no matter how materially similar people are (see identicle twins), there is always difference. In this sense, the lessons of the Grace of God in terms of unconditional love are lessons in love despite/beyond difference. (OTHER inherently implies different than self). 5) In this sense, lessons in the Golden Rule are lessons in Unconditional love. They are also lessons that prepare the spirit for some CORE aspect of existence in the next realm. In this sense, they serve a CORE purpose of the Grace of God. 6) To the extent that our existence on earth is governed by a Sacred (Divine) Mystery (the Grace of God), lessons in Unconditional Love are themselves Sacred.
LoveWins	Why an Abomination?	#11	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 18:14:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Like left handedness, Creation of those destined for same gender life partnership is a natural variation/difference that occurs in every generation and community. Lessons in Unconditional love of self and others learned while on this particular path can produce some of the most painful yet profound understandings of the Golden Rule... Such individuals exist to learn/teach/be lessons in unconditional love in a very specific, special way. THeir life path presents a natural lesson in Unconditional Love/the Grace of God. It is thus Sacred.
LoveWins	Why Abomination? (cont)	#12	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 18:42:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A) Webster's Definition: 1. Abomination - something that is odious, loathsome, or disgusting 2. Profanity To treat something Sacred with irreverence or contempt B) Profanity (as defined above) is an Abomination (odious, loathsome, disgusting). C) The path of those Created to enter into same gender life partnership is Unique and Sacred. D) The Close Unions that derive from this path are Unique and Sacred. E) The impulse to reduce the above (parts C and D) to just sex is inherent/latent in terms like: homoSEXuality.... Conception of same gender life partnership as NOT Unique in any way EXCEPT for SEX (the act)....treats a Sacred Lesson with irreverence.
LoveWins	Intellectual Healing	#13	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/11/03 19:16:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To avoid profaining the path of same gender life partnership, a new vocabulary might be needed... To questions of orientation (Are you Gay/homosexual?), perhaps the direction should be towards affirming: 1. I exist by the Grace of God 2. I am a lesson in Unconditional Love Strive not to delude others or yourself into believing that you are anything other than this....because in Truth you are not.
LoveWins	In Sum	#14	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/12/03 04:39:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A) In Every Generation There are Born Those Created by the Grace of God to both: 1. enter into same gender life partnership 2. deeply understand the importance and Truth behind the Revelation of Baha'u'llah for this Age including that of its Sanctioned lineage (Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi, the UHJ) *In this sense, this is a distinct spiritual path* B) In encouraging interaction with members of other religions in a spirit of peace and love (paraphrasing), Baha'u'llah affirms that there will ALWAYS be individuals destined for spiritual paths that differ from official REGISTERED Bahai-ness. C) Abdul Baha has stated that Religion opposed/divorced from Science is superstition and that that Science divorced from Religion is materialism. D) The Core/Deep meaning of the word Science is Knowledge. E) Three levels of human knowledge exist: 1. Material - physical existence 2. Intellectual - a personal path resulting from the interaction of 1 and 3 3. Spiritual - the realm governed by the Grace of God F) The physical brain chemistry/make up that predisposes individuals for the path outlined in A) has been shown to be natural/not a physical ailment by material Science. G) Lack of deep intellectual knowledge of the spiritual significance of 'The Path' leads to pain/is a problem. H) The Revelation of Baha'u'llah, including the seemingly pain-causing statements made by it's Sanctioned leadership, when prayed upon and contemplated and understood on a deep intellectual level, provide the tools for healing the problem of gay Bahai-ness (see above).
LoveWins	The Test	#15	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/12/03 05:49:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	a) Love despite Otherness is the best teacher in the Golden Rule b) The Golden Rule runs through all spiritual systems and thus is likely to provide CORE preparation for serving the purposes of the Grace of God/existence in the next realm. c) The path of those born into or drawn towards 'Gay Bahai-ness' is Unique/Different and has natural potential for profound insight into the eternal value of the Golden Rule. THis is because: 1. THe path exists and persists by the Grace of God alone (to serve a Divine Mystery) and involves first an understanding of the value and love derivable from sameness (cultural birthright) then, (as one grows old enough to contemplate life partnership) must face the inevitable understanding of differentness (inherent minority status). 2. THe restrictions placed on The path among REGISTERED Bahais also exist/persist by the Grace of God alone (to serve a Divine Mystery) and in themselves Create a group that naturally perceives/embodies OTHERNESS in a SPECIFIC way....they cannot be REGISTERED Bahais, and serve God's full will for their path. d) The Test The Natural Otherness created by application of the rules of the faith for registered Bahai's to same gender life partnership creates the potential for CRUCIAL lesson in Unconditional Love that MUST be continually monitored and demonstrated to the world: The question/Test this presents is as follows: 'What is the capacity of this religion (and its members) to TRULY respect and accomodate lawful/harmless OTHERNESS? (i.e. if the majority of the world became registered Bahais, what would happen to the value in inevitable OTHERNESS?....would it be taken for granted?)'
LoveWins	The Challenge	#16	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/12/03 06:22:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is a question: Given that: 1. People who are born to be 'Gay' (spiritually analogous to left handedness---thus 'Spiritual Lefties') and in alignment with the Revelation of Baha'u'llah are a natural OTHER created as a result of the rules of the faith for REGISTERED members. (and OTHERNESS is important in serving the purposes of the Grace of God) 2. THere is a need, especially among Youth on this path, for an organized, scripturally supported space to contemplate the significance of who they are (their life path) so that they have support/courage in facing the implications of the full, honest, embodiment of their life path (letting go of REGISTERED membership, embracing the Grace of God's will for their life). The Challenge: Can the community currently known as 'Gay Bahai' provide an ORGANIZED way to support each other in embracing the Spiritual Significance of Love despite OTHERNESS (unconditional love/the Golden Rule) for the Cause of God...and thus embrace the fact that theirs is a path that includes membership in a community that is inherently NOT meant to be REGISTERED as Bahai?
Unregistered(d)	Well sir	#17	[-]
Posts: 0 (10/12/03 11:25:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well sir, I think the theology of it is quite straightforward. Most religions have the same view point. The whole point here, like smoking drinking alcohol, lying, cheating, celibacy (discouraged incidently) etc, is that you have to use your own judgement in working out how to use religious laws in context to your own personal life. Show me one person who follows ALL the laws, and Ill show you a piece of fiction. Did you know smoking was also going to be "banned"?? The only reason it wasnt was because it would have identified every single Babi in 19th century Iran. So wrt laws on homosexuality --- well the laws are quite straightward. Personally speaking: Its not very practical Sorry God, and any community members who come into my bedroom. Forgive me on this ONE law. Im pretty good on the rest of them. Its not very practical to say "DONT". What do you expect a homosexual male to do? A lifetime of showers? You have to take everything in perspective. Primary laws -- Be good. 2ndary Laws -- say prayers and pay your (religious + civil) taxes. (Incidently Im in a horrendously evil country. Dont like the ppl or anything about them waiting to leave. sounds very unbahai doesnt it? unity in diversity but not in my case ) Anyway Im getting a bit fed up with this. Sex is just a drive and um leave it there. I do wish I had a board like this when I was 19 and feeling guilty. Matey be practical next time.
LoveWins	?????	#18	[-]
Posts: 139 (10/14/03 06:59:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello, I happen to be female...I'm not sure that I follow your response to the ideas put out for consultation (the above). What are your thoughts on how 'wrong', 'unhealed', 'unnatural' and 'abomination' were explained.....? Peace and Love.
Unregistered(d)	well maam	#19	[-]
Posts: 0 (10/14/03 07:30:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Of course. Whole point is lots of things are declared as being sinfull. Including Overeating, smoking, etc. All Im saying is you have to use your judgement in applying these daily laws to your own personal life. For example: Military service is mandatory in most countries. Killing ppl is against the law of God. So a Bahai or otherwise religious soldier has to use his judge ment on being conscripted and entering battle. We are not automans (Rule A Ruel B Rule C), and Religious laws are for GUIDANCE. So personaly speaking wrt homosexuality as far as Im concerned okay its not permitted. What doyou suggest I do for the rest of my life? Cold showers? Marry a woman and subject her to an unhappy unfullfilled life? And there are (1% * 3 000 000) 3000 other Bahais like me. You have to use your own judgement in applying daily laws. For example -- wrt drinking. I was born into an islamic culture I dont drink in any case. Dont like the taste (except when Im tired) but if Im in a gathering where the idiots (sorry Im in excuse my unbahai words Piece of shit country. stranded refugee amongst ppl who can only be described as human pieces of shit. One good man (me) and 50 million pieces of shit. Im hoping UNHCR gets me out of this country)) Im with are drinking I --- take a little sip. moderation, wisdom and judgement ma'am. Anyway this arguments getting passe. We all have to make choices in our lives. Keeping quiet is the best option I guess. Or joining another church. Personally speaking I wish there was a web site like this when I was guilty hormonal 16 yr old. Thats why I really like this board. Again you have to use your own judgement. Did you know Abdul Baha used to go to the mosque regularly? Did you know the first Bahais in North America were permitted to drink? Did you know that smoking like Alcohol was going to be banned and wasnt as to do so would have identified every single Babi in medieval Iran? Instead its "discouraged" and alcohol is "banned". Did you know that polygamy is actually ALLOWED in the Aqdas. A man can have 2 wives. It was amended to 1. Incidently 2 wives per male is the ethologically normal for homo sapiens. If you go to farming villages in preindustrial cultures --they still exist ---- most men have one wife and the village head man has 2 wives. Its the "natural" way. So when were talking about "laws" you have to use your own judgement and then umm keep queit about it. Personally speaking Im not religious I think the small size ofthe Bahai community makes life difficult for Bahais who are "that way inclined". It stands out. Sorry for the swearing. Unity and diversity and were all leafs of one branch but amongst non-humans afai concerned. Im hoping UNHCR does its job and gets me out of this horrendous country. In peace. Pray that UNHCR gets me out of here. Then I will check this board once a month only
Unregistered(d)	Continued	#20	[-]
Posts: 0 (10/15/03 08:38:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Apologies for the profanities in the last post. Im in an awfull situation currently.

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